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Title: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 16th, 2004, 10:14pm this betrayers common has made its way into some stores: Ninja of the Deep Hours 3U Creature - Human Ninja Ninjutsu 1U (1U, Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.) Whenever Ninja of the Deep Hours deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card. 2/2 Ill. - Dan Scott 44/165 |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 16th, 2004, 10:16pm http://forums.mtgnews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35559 |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by johnstown713 on Dec 16th, 2004, 10:20pm Wait so is it available in certain areas? |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by AXIOS on Dec 16th, 2004, 10:26pm it is starting to get too asian.. :'( I want dominaria back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There was only one good expansion using a real life theme (sort of) and that was Arabian nights. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by mintcollector on Dec 16th, 2004, 10:52pm on 12/16/04 at 22:26:40, AXIOS wrote:
Nico: We only have 2 more expansions to suffer through, then this set will start it steady death like all other blocks. normalbrains: Venues often get this sneak preview common as sort of a teaser pack. It has always been a common and more often than not, shows the new effect of the set. In this case, Ninjutsu. EDIT: This is no more than a normal common with nothing special about it whatsoever, just as an fyi for all those who do not know what these sneak preview cards are. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 16th, 2004, 11:03pm on 12/16/04 at 22:26:40, AXIOS wrote:
Me too |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 16th, 2004, 11:12pm I foresee this ability being argued quite a bit in multiplayer. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by sylvanstu on Dec 17th, 2004, 12:58am so this card is saying if unblocked you get to attack again in the same turn and then get to draw cards from your library. am i reading this right or the second time around does your opponant get to assign a blocker if they choose cause this is a second attack phase. what a confussing abuility woc you guys are reaching to far bring back magics simplicity |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by sylvanstu on Dec 17th, 2004, 12:59am isn't this abuility broken you could keep paying 1u and keep attacking a drawing a card ? ::) |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 17th, 2004, 1:06am you only get to attack once. it effectively replaces your attacking creature before it deals damage. really weird flavor-wise, but i guess it is very sneaky. but why would a spirit suddenly turn into a ninja? those wacky ninjas. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by spartan65 on Dec 17th, 2004, 1:08am that is awsome you can basically wipe someone out then draw a sh*t load of cards! ;D |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 17th, 2004, 2:15am In multiplayer, if the rules aren't written otherwise, you'd be able to attack someone with no blockers, then switch the attacker with a Ninja attacking someone else entirely. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by spartan65 on Dec 17th, 2004, 5:02am on 12/17/04 at 01:06:52, normalbrains wrote:
no that is rong i think...but since my comp wont load the card i cant check |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 17th, 2004, 5:30am The rules of Magic don't change, you still only get one attack. The important part is "Return an unblocked attacker", which means that we're still in combat, otherwise there are no attackers. You are free to respond to instants that might destroy the creature so that you can save it, replay it and still deal damage. The creature will still only deal damage once during combat when damage is put on the stack (unless you somehow give it first strike and return it to your hand and replay it before regular combat damage is assigned). Once damage is on the stack using the ability won't do anything interesting. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Jess on Dec 17th, 2004, 12:43pm Has anyone actually seen the card ??? The wording is wrong (Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand instead of Return an unblocked attacking creature you control to its owner's hand) which makes me think it's a fake [smiley=veryangry.gif] |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by AXIOS on Dec 17th, 2004, 1:03pm on 12/17/04 at 12:43:08, Jess wrote:
[smiley=ok.gif] there you've got a point |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by mintcollector on Dec 17th, 2004, 3:58pm I think there is a misunderstanding of how this card works by some here. This ability effectively allows you to swap out a creature during the attack phase prior to the end of the attack phase and damage resolves. As others have said, there is not a second attack phase. This card allows you to effectively swap out one if your attackers if unblocked with a creature with Ninjutsu. Here is an example of a Kamigawa block (of course with an good early start hand): Turn 1: Play Plains, tap to cast Lantern Kami Turn 2: Play Island, declare attack with Lantern Kami (which will probably be unblocked, but prior to dmg resolution, as a combat effect , pay 1U to swap Lantern Kami with Ninja of the Deep Hours. Thus when damage resolves, your opponent takes 2 instead of 1, and you get to draw a card. Turn 3: Play a land, recast Lantern Kami...etc This ability is cool as it will gives the game a whole new level of subversion and uncertainty (much like playing against someone with green and knowing they have Giant Growths and their ilk their deck. Makes it hard to do combat math as the defender. While powerful, this ability is not broken. I'd like to see what uncommons and rares will have this ability, as they will more than likely be bigger fatties with this power. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 17th, 2004, 4:28pm I think that there is some ambiguity with the phrase "this card". Ninjutsu 1U (1U, Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking.) I had been assuming that this ability can only be played when the creature with Ninjutsu is in play, and that "this card" was the creature that had been attacking previously. It would be interesting if the Ninjutsu ability could be played from your hand so as to swap places with an attacking creature. Either ability is useful, but the card seems awkwardly worded. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by mintcollector on Dec 17th, 2004, 4:37pm on 12/17/04 at 16:28:33, psrex wrote:
Ack what is so hard about this ability...it is so easy to understand. Your assumptions that it can be played from your hand is 100% correct as this is how the ability works. If you have an unblocked attacker, you can swap that creature with a creature from your handle with Ninjutsu by paying the Ninjutsu cost. Thus this new creature played is part of the combat (hence the wording "Put this card into play from your hand tapping and attacking"). so this creature is part of the combat. The proper sub-phase in the attack sequence is to play a Ninjutsu card after your opponent has assigned blocks, thereby ensuring your new Ninjutsu card will deal damage (and in this case with Ninja of the Deep hours, get you a free card draw). |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by sylvanstu on Dec 18th, 2004, 6:29am Mike i read it and saw it a different way totally but after you explained it it was easy to understand ;) |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by spartan65 on Dec 18th, 2004, 11:52pm oops i reread it and normal brains is right. u do return an attacking creature and switch with this one before damage is done...just look at it and think of it for awile [smiley=dissappointed.gif] [smiley=dissappointed.gif] [smiley=dissappointed.gif] [smiley=dissappointed.gif] |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by squt on Dec 20th, 2004, 6:14pm This is horribly confusing! I have played magic just about every week for the last three years, and I had to read Mint's explanation before I understood the ability. My first assumption was that the Ninja has to be in play too...have we seen a creature keyword ability, anything other than cycling, who's ability can be played while they're in your hand? I think it's pretty interesting, now that I understand it. It makes for an interesting synergy with bushido...do I block that stupid battle-mad-ronin, knowing it could turn into a ninja for 1U? The tricky part is that you really, really have to know your magic rules to understand and play this correctly...functionally, this card 'turns into' the unblocked creature, since you're putting it into play AFTER blockers are declared. Then, since it's an attacking creature, and we're long past declaring blockers, its damage can still be put on the stack and you still get to draw a card. For me, the confusion came with the 'put THIS card into play' part. In normal English, that would usually refer to the card you just put back in your hand. In magic-ese, ~this card~ has a very specific meaning. Horrible, horrible templating. Neat ability, but I foresee thousands of causual players around the world misunderstanding this ability. If they had simply put the card name where the word 'this' is in the reminder text, it would have read right to me the first time. Squt |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by misterpid on Dec 20th, 2004, 6:42pm Can you only play it after defenders are chosen and before damage is dealt? Or, since the ability isn't targeted, can I attack with my Blastoderm, have Blasty deal his damage, then bounce him back to my hand with a Ninjitsu creature before damage resolves? |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 20th, 2004, 7:02pm I think that the ability is usable any time during the attack phase after attackers have been declared. You should be able to use the ability before blockers have been declared or after damage has gone on the stack. They could have made the ability less confusing by changing it to: Ninjutsu 1U (1U: Put this card into play tapped and attacking. Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand.) I know that it's not identical since the creature is returned to hand on resolution rather than as a cost, but it's much clearer. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by squt on Dec 20th, 2004, 9:50pm NO, Psrex- you can't return it any time after attackers are declared. Look at where the colon is in the reminder text - returning an UNBLOCKED creature to your hand is part of the cost of the ability! Which is also why your rewording functionally changes the ability - the way you have it, the ability could be activated even if you didn't have an unblocked creature to return to your hand. Although, I think technically you could activate it AFTER damage was on the stack, if you wanted to play your untapped blastoderm after combat. The ninja wouldn't deal damage that combat, but the blastoderm would be able to block on the next turn. I really think that all (well, most) of the confusion could have been cleared up by changing the word 'this' to the card's actual name. Squt |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by mintcollector on Dec 20th, 2004, 9:51pm on 12/20/04 at 18:42:57, misterpid wrote:
No you could not. Damage resolution is a fixed sub step of the attack phase. Either the Blastoderm is there or he is not, substituting it with a Ninjustsu card. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 20th, 2004, 10:16pm on 12/20/04 at 21:50:56, squt wrote:
I was going to say that it seems that an unblocked creature is one that hasn't been blocked yet, so it should be legal, but I went ahead and read the relevant comprehensive rules section. 309.2f states that attacking creatures become blocked or unblocked creatures only after blockers have been declared. It further states that the creatures remain blocked or unblocked until they are either removed from combat or until the end of combat. So, you could return Blastoderm after damage has been assigned, get out the Ninja (who will do nothing), and then recast the Blastoderm once your back in your main phase. My rewrite is indeed worthless, however. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by misterpid on Dec 20th, 2004, 10:18pm on 12/20/04 at 21:51:24, mintcollector wrote:
But wouldn't it be kind of equivalent to unsummoning a creature after it's damage has gone on the stack? That damage gets dealt (at least it does on MTGO) and the creature is still considered an attacking creature (you can still target it with Chastise at that point). The Ninjitsu effect seems to let you return an untargetable card like a Blastoderm that will have to be sacrificed on your next upkeep. Squt - the problem is that you're looking at reminder text which refers to the ability, not the card. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by squt on Dec 21st, 2004, 12:08am Pid- for the first part of your post - I think you're right - you should be able to return the blastoderm to your hand after damage is on the stack. But then the 'derm's damage will resolve, not the ninja's, and you won't get the card. And I'm not sure what you're referring to on your second part. If it's about the cost, the definition of "Ninjitsu' appears to have the added cost of "Return an unblocked attacking creature you control to owner's hand" as a built-in cost. Squt |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by misterpid on Dec 21st, 2004, 12:38am on 12/20/04 at 21:50:56, squt wrote:
This is what I was referring to. edit: The statement "Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card into play from your hand tapped and attacking" is the reminder text for the Ninjitsu ability - which is not specific to that particular card. So, I don't think they would put the card's name in place of the words "this card." As far as I know, WotC has yet to change the wording of any reminder text to be card specific. (I haven't seen too much of the newer sets, so they might have.) |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Dec 21st, 2004, 12:43am so I could return a ninjitsu, put a ninjitzu into play, then do it again :P |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by squt on Dec 21st, 2004, 5:19pm No, because the ninja wouldn't be in your hand when you activated it the second time. squt |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Dec 21st, 2004, 5:39pm no, I'm saying you have 2 ninjitsu creatures. My question is, can I do this more than once per attack with only 1 attacker. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by misterpid on Dec 21st, 2004, 7:53pm If you have the following in play: Ninja of the Deep Hours (attacking and unblocked) 2 Birds of Paradise Intruder Alarm And a Ninja of the Deep Hours in hand, You should be able to use the Ninjitsu ability as many times as you'd like. If you also have a Prodigal Sorcerer in play, you can use the him to ping your opponent(s) each time you use the Ninjitsu ability until they are dead. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 21st, 2004, 8:27pm This does not work. Comes into play triggers do not go off when a creature is put into play. Intruder Alaram says: Creatures don't untap during their controllers' untap steps. Whenever a creature comes into play, untap all creatures. The rules say: Put into play: If an effect instructs a player to put an object into play, that object is not considered "played". Played items use the stack (except for land). |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by misterpid on Dec 21st, 2004, 9:13pm Hmmm... I used to have a deck that used Hell's Caretaker like this. According to "Ask the Judge" on StarCity's site, the tokens from a Deranged Hermit (which are put into play) will trigger Intruder Alarm. Also, from the rules: Comes into Play A permanent comes into play when the card or token representing it is moved into the in-play zone. I agree that the action of putting the card into play doesn't initiate a stack the way casting a spell would, but I think that the effect of the creature coming into play triggers the Intruder Alarm. Obviously judges will have to deal with these types of situations more often than they probably want to when this set comes out. I'm glad I'm not a judge - they definitely earn all the promo cards they get. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 21st, 2004, 9:36pm The rules have changed so much since Hell's Caretaker was in vogue. I'm sure that your deck worked at the time. I don't know if it would work now or not. I periodically try to improve my rules knowledge, but there's still enough that I don't know or get confused about, such as the Hermit tokens and Intruder Alarm. Judge! (waves arms wildly) |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by misterpid on Dec 21st, 2004, 10:29pm I'm right there with you as far as keeping up with everything goes. Pretty much the only way I find out how stuff works now is to see how it works on MTGO, and hope that there aren't any bugs involved. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 22nd, 2004, 1:49am on 12/21/04 at 20:27:15, psrex wrote:
I don't know where your getting that idea, but it most certainly DOES trigger. It definitely does come into play. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by psrex on Dec 22nd, 2004, 2:13am It's entirely possible that I'm thinking of the difference between something being played (such as Phage) and put into play and confusing it with the issue at hand. Maybe there is no difference between something coming into play and being put in play. ??? ??? ??? |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Mr.C on Dec 22nd, 2004, 3:39am on 12/22/04 at 02:13:08, psrex wrote:
Not in this case. The game doesn´t care from WHERE it came, as long as it came into play. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Dec 22nd, 2004, 5:44pm collecting is so much easier than playing :-/ |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 22nd, 2004, 6:32pm on 12/22/04 at 17:44:07, dry_cereal wrote:
indeed. Though I enjoy both, and need to study for the judge's exam.... |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Dec 22nd, 2004, 9:18pm when you're a judge, will you let me cheat? or at least badger my opponent? |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 22nd, 2004, 9:20pm on 12/22/04 at 21:18:38, dry_cereal wrote:
Depends on how many FBLs you contribute that day... ;) j/k |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 23rd, 2004, 9:51pm something else to debate: real or fake? zombie in kamigawa? http://img157.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img157&image=MasteroftheLasthour3.jpg |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 23rd, 2004, 9:57pm on 12/23/04 at 21:51:58, normalbrains wrote:
Its hard to say either way. Because the card is on someone's hand, real-ness is impiled, BUT it looks like it could be faked. What I mean is: it looks like a card was created in photoshop ("shopped") and then the image was super-imposed on an image of a hand. I say this because the border between the card and the hand looks a bit off. However, if that was done, it was done very well (look at the shadow in the lower-left corner). As for the card itself, I can believe it. The ability is ok, but expensive enough to be believable (see: mana cost of Wrath). |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 23rd, 2004, 10:05pm http://img157.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img157&image=MasteroftheLasthour1.jpg http://img138.exs.cx/img138/413/MasteroftheLasthour4.jpg |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 23rd, 2004, 10:09pm on 12/23/04 at 22:05:05, normalbrains wrote:
Second link doesnt work. Despite the fact that the symbol looks a bit too yellow, I believe it now. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 23rd, 2004, 10:19pm some believe it to be fake because of this closeup: http://forums.mtgnews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35832 i think its real. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Dec 24th, 2004, 12:13am http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bp43/towers.JPG |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 24th, 2004, 12:30am Not to mention that it's a Zombie, and there aren't supposed to be any Zombies in this block. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by sylvanstu on Dec 24th, 2004, 12:54am look atpicture closely its a fake too there's a plane that is going to crash into the building he's standing on and it's too small everything about this card is fake also like mentioned before it's a zombie no zombies in kamigawa block. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by silver.paladin on Dec 24th, 2004, 1:05am on 12/24/04 at 00:54:35, sylvanstu wrote:
Why could there not be Zombies in Kamigawa? There are Samurai legends of the warriors going to do battles with the Living Dead in Feudal Japan, and Kamigawa is sorta Japanese tinted. And, supposedly, Resident Evil is one of the most popular movies and computer games in Japan right now. It does not really matter to me if Zombies are in the 2nd or 3rd installment of Kamigawa, since they are generally black creatures, but if they do appear, I would not be overly surprised. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 24th, 2004, 2:10am on 12/24/04 at 00:54:35, sylvanstu wrote:
Forgetting the card, *is* the picture fake? |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Dec 24th, 2004, 3:34am yes, I admit it. I superimposed the picture of the card. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 24th, 2004, 5:21am on 12/24/04 at 01:05:36, silver.paladin wrote:
Wizards said that they wanted Zombies out as they didn't want to blur the line between the living world and the spirit world. I'd tend to think they'd stick with something like that for the whole block. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 24th, 2004, 9:20pm haha nice pic. i dont think that one zombie is too crazy to throw in the set. it makes sense flavorwise also. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 24th, 2004, 9:55pm Rancored_Elf has declared it a fake through one of his reliable sources. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 24th, 2004, 11:27pm on 12/24/04 at 21:55:13, flatmatt wrote:
Thats good enough for me :) |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by sylvanstu on Dec 25th, 2004, 7:17am on 12/24/04 at 23:27:36, Celebrindor wrote:
Evan i don't want to bust your balls but did you really need rancoredelfs opinion on this one. FAKE FAKE FAKE |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 25th, 2004, 6:38pm from the hallowed finger tips of RE: Faithful Squire - Creature - Human Soldier (U) Whenever you play a Spirit or Arcane spell, you may put a ki counter on Faithful Squire. At end of turn, if there are two or more ki counters on Faithful Squire, you may flip it. 2/2 /// Kaiso, Memory of Loyalty Legendary Creature - Spirit Flying Remove a ki counter from Kaiso, Memory of Loyalty: Prevent all damage that would be dealt to target creature this turn. 3/4 |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 27th, 2004, 10:24pm Mark of the Oni - 2B Enchant Creature (U) You control enchanted creature. At end of turn, if you control no Demons, sacrifice Mark of the Oni. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by flatmatt on Dec 28th, 2004, 6:39am Wow, that's a big step. I suppose flavorwise black has it through some kind of possession thing. As for the color wheel, I'm not sure how this really fits into black's ideology. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 31st, 2004, 8:45pm http://forums.mtgnews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36102 |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 31st, 2004, 8:53pm on 12/31/04 at 20:45:17, normalbrains wrote:
an uncommon prerelease card? Hmmm..... |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 31st, 2004, 8:57pm where does it say its a pre-release card? |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by Celebrindor on Dec 31st, 2004, 9:02pm on 12/31/04 at 20:57:50, normalbrains wrote:
Um, the expansion symbol and logo in the text boxes. |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by normalbrains on Dec 31st, 2004, 10:34pm i didnt notice it and now it wont show up. that will be weird, but isnt there going to be 2 pre-release cards? on a side note, i hope several pre-release cards does not become the norm. this usually spells the end of a good thing as seen in comics (multiple covers, gimmicky covers) and sports cards (the early 90's explosion and gimmick treatment). |
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Title: Re: ninjas and ninjitsu Post by dry_cereal on Jan 1st, 2005, 4:55am probably won't become the norm. They don't make any money off of them. |
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